Posts by Jonathan Drake

182

The Case for Theism

by FusionTheism in

"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.

" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.

atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.

Jonathan Drake

don't like the atheist label because it was given by the very theists.
Being a negative it gives the self evident status to theism.

I think that might be why we are now seeing the rise of "Secularism"

150

Disfellowshipping Image

by naazira in

jw
friends

this photo can be found in the april 15 , study edition article titled:.

why disfellowshipping is a loving provision.

just by looking at this image we can see how quickly the barrier between the congregation and former member is put up, after the announcement that this sister is no longer one of jehovah's witneses.

Jonathan Drake

So screwed up. How incredibly sad.

80

Is RIDICULE acceptable in online debating?

by nicolaou in

this topic was inspired by one of fhn's comments on the 'warzone' thread, so i'll just restate my post there .

.. "i've been wondering for a while now if ridicule really is an unacceptable feature in debate - it certainly isn't a valid form of argumentation.

the thing is, some individuals really do come out with the most laughable nonsense and parade it as a serious proposition that merits attention.

Jonathan Drake

"laughable nonsense" that some individuals proclaim.

Ridiculing their words is tantamount to ridiculing them (if for no other reason than they will feel this way).

It is possible to reason with a person without ridiculing them. And reasoning will bring about the same emotional response because they will get just as worked up - the difference is that they will be all worked up trying to disprove a factual position of reason and failing as oppose to arguing that they are being ridiculed and mistreated which is true.

Unfortunately, ridicule is far more likely to work against you. While it shouldn't at all have any effect on the view of your argument in terms of truth and reality, it does and it will in the minds of most people.

75

What was your eye opening moment?

by WasOnceBlind in

if you had to pinpoint the time or experience that finally made you open your eyes, what would it be?.

i think for me it was the time i saw my dad shun his brother who he had not seen in decades just because he was a da'ed jw.

i thought to my self "no way jesus would do that.

Jonathan Drake

For me it was studying the bible intensely. Specifically, learning who the FDS really was according to scripture.

80

Is RIDICULE acceptable in online debating?

by nicolaou in

this topic was inspired by one of fhn's comments on the 'warzone' thread, so i'll just restate my post there .

.. "i've been wondering for a while now if ridicule really is an unacceptable feature in debate - it certainly isn't a valid form of argumentation.

the thing is, some individuals really do come out with the most laughable nonsense and parade it as a serious proposition that merits attention.

Jonathan Drake

I do not feel ridicule is acceptable in any debate or discussion.

If we are going to win over any theists to the side of reason it certainly will be without ridicule.

I look at it like this: Theists ARE victims. This is just a fact, though they are not victims in the sense that they claim in these debates. They are victims in the sense that because of where they were born and who raised them (factors outside their control) they were taught dogma and gullability. They suffer from a well ingrained delusion passed down by parents or priests.

In the same sense I would never ridicule a victim of robbery, rape, assault or any other crime for suffering in the way they have I will not ridicule a victim of faith. (Though I've had moments where my patience was worn thin).

Now. I will not say the same of the teachers and leaders of religion. these such men and women deserve ridicule, they deserve to be tried and imprisoned for all their crimes, including the suffering of theists.

141

Schoolyard bully mentality

by FusionTheism in

i'm not naming names, but i just want to encourage people on here or on reddit or twitter, and tell you that you do not have to tolerate people who act like schoolyard bullies in the way they speak to you online.

i think anonymity is a big part of it.

they feel like there is zero accountability so they can be a bully all they want.. i recommend just ignoring or blocking anyone who is verbally abusive or treats you like schoolyard bullies treated you.. life is way too short to spend any time dealing with those kinds of people..

Jonathan Drake

You use that word reasonable again, perhaps I am deceiving myself in thinking I can reason but I cannot even get to the point you are describing!

It is reasonable to investigate claims of universal truth. Religious beliefs claim that there is a God who made the world and has directly had interaction with it since in various ways (except ,for some reason, the last 2000 years). It's natural for human beings to want to investigate such claims.

if I told you that your spouse was cheating on you, wouldn't you demand evidence? You would want to investigate why I believe this to be true and scrutinize my reasons.

The same would be true if I told you that eating blue Popsicles can literally make you fly. Would you believe this? Not without some serious evidence, I'm sure.

so now I tell you that 2000 years ago a man performed miraculous healing, resurrected the dead, and then was murdered all as a plan by God to save your soul (or whatever, wash you of sin etc) and you (if you're a theist) require no proof at all.

people naturally investigate everything for whether it is true or not EXCEPT faith. As a species our credulity scales with evidence everywhere but religion - this is why it is not reasonable, because it has been deemed unacceptable to investigate it for real truth while we do the same for literally everything else.

141

Schoolyard bully mentality

by FusionTheism in

i'm not naming names, but i just want to encourage people on here or on reddit or twitter, and tell you that you do not have to tolerate people who act like schoolyard bullies in the way they speak to you online.

i think anonymity is a big part of it.

they feel like there is zero accountability so they can be a bully all they want.. i recommend just ignoring or blocking anyone who is verbally abusive or treats you like schoolyard bullies treated you.. life is way too short to spend any time dealing with those kinds of people..

Jonathan Drake

Jonathan Drake,
Are you saying that a person must reject faith in order to be a good person or to actively make the world a better place?
Can you list 5 atheists who changed the world for the better?
I can name hundreds of theists/deists:
* William Wilberforce
* Abraham Lincoln
* George Washington
* Martin Luther King Jr.
* John F Kennedy
* Francis Collins
* Isaac Newton
* Barack Obama
* Mother Theresa

No I would never say that a person must reject faith to make the word a better place. That's a ridiculous thing to say because it's factually wrong. People of faith have made positive contributions to society. But PEOPLE aren't being scrutinized, their beliefs and religions are. PEOPLE have made positive changes in the world, religion paved the way to the holocaust.

Making the claim you're making here doesn't actually say anything. The world has been dominated by religion all the way up to Darwin, and even after Darwin it still has a grip on society. Of course there have been theists who made the world a better place, but in order to do so what first had to happen was the church had to lose its authority.

While religion actually RULED we, as a species, were unable to advance ethically, morally, or scientifically. Attempts to do so were labeled heresy and resulted in death or imprisonment.

While religion ruled, people lived in huts and mud, died of diseases believed to be caused by scourges and were kept poor while kings and princes lived lives of luxury believed to be ordained by god and supported by the church. Only because of science has any of this changed, diseases were no longer because of God, people had good food and homes and those of lower classes today enjoy better luxuries than kings and princes could ever even dream of under religious rule. Only by man and because of man has society improved and that only because religion lost its control.

i could absolutely name atheists who changed the world, but it doesn't actually mean anything, I won't reduce their accomplishments to some pointless competition. Even if I could not do this, it doesn't change the empirical evidence that religion is the source of the worst things that ever happened in our history and now.

I cannot stress enough the example of stem cell research. Banned because of religious dogma. Because this research exists and could end the suffering of millions of people, the fact that those millions suffer still must be laid at the feet of religion as its fault. This is only one example of the harms of religion affecting society out of numerous others.

141

Schoolyard bully mentality

by FusionTheism in

i'm not naming names, but i just want to encourage people on here or on reddit or twitter, and tell you that you do not have to tolerate people who act like schoolyard bullies in the way they speak to you online.

i think anonymity is a big part of it.

they feel like there is zero accountability so they can be a bully all they want.. i recommend just ignoring or blocking anyone who is verbally abusive or treats you like schoolyard bullies treated you.. life is way too short to spend any time dealing with those kinds of people..

Jonathan Drake

Maybe it shouldnt if you were dealing with machinery made of steel but we are dealing with humans with hearts who are coming out of a bad storm (religiously speaking)
Have you heard the saying
At the end of the day people won't remember what you said or did,they will remember how you made them feel.
Let me just go ahead and address the elephant in the room....the A word (atheism) or would it be the T word (theism)?
I say that because this seems to be where we all feel the most angst,
If the theists are to be reached it is NOT going to be by the methods some here use.
So if the goal of a poster (theist or atheist) is to try to reach people then they may want to consider that.
If that is not their goal - then the methods speak to it being something else entirely that is at work.

Well I can't disagree; this is a very good point. People will remember how they are made to feel first. This is why I try to stay as respectful as I can (though I have my moments).

This is very difficult though, because the majority (absolutely not all, but the majority) of theists are made to feel that they are being attacked rather easily. Usually, this feeling arises the moment cognitive dissonance takes place. Because of this what you suggest, and I wish was always possible, of avoiding making them feel attacked is sort of impossible. I'd argue it's absolutely impossible in this sort of setting, devoid of all body language and tone of voice.

Take for example my dad. During one of our many discussions he positioned that people of the world who aren't Jehovah's witnesses actually age faster. In support of this he stated all the people he went to high school with are his age (mid forties) but look like they are 60 or older. My response was a perfectly rational question, "do you feel it rational and logical to compare the few people from your highschool to the 8 billion others on earth?" There was silence for a few seconds and I could literally see the dissonance happen. The response I got was to be insulted and told I was being a know it all and much more. Clearly he felt attacked, but would you say he had merit to feel that way?

this is the problem. Theists react to reasonable investigation of their faith as though it some how makes them victims of some attack. It does not.

141

Schoolyard bully mentality

by FusionTheism in

i'm not naming names, but i just want to encourage people on here or on reddit or twitter, and tell you that you do not have to tolerate people who act like schoolyard bullies in the way they speak to you online.

i think anonymity is a big part of it.

they feel like there is zero accountability so they can be a bully all they want.. i recommend just ignoring or blocking anyone who is verbally abusive or treats you like schoolyard bullies treated you.. life is way too short to spend any time dealing with those kinds of people..

Jonathan Drake

Maybe you are referring to other things he has posted elsewhere but his opening post here was entirely reasonable.

I disagree because it's just not reasonable to suggest not listening to opposing positions. Even if those positions are presented in a direct hostile way (which what he's referring to, so far as I've read, has not been), it does not delegitimize the opposing claim.

What is being suggested by the OP is deliberately taking measures to shield oneself from the possibility of being wrong. This isn't much different from the governing body telling witnesses to stay off of apostate websites and not go to college. It's for the same reason, to avoid facing a slap by reality and having the illusion fall away. It's an unhealthy lifestyle that has resulted in terrible things in our world.

I honestly understand not wanting to walk through the door of reason and choosing to remain coddled by dogma. I've been that person. But educating myself on the damage being that person has done to our species and being brave enough to walk through that door has changed my view of life from an apathetic waiting game of Jesus to a passionate desire to actively make the world a better place. This is what happens when you set aside dogma and faith.

ill qualify that by adding it may be unhealthy to remove faith for some. Such as older ones who have wasted their entire lives. But I do not think this is such a scenario.

141

Schoolyard bully mentality

by FusionTheism in

i'm not naming names, but i just want to encourage people on here or on reddit or twitter, and tell you that you do not have to tolerate people who act like schoolyard bullies in the way they speak to you online.

i think anonymity is a big part of it.

they feel like there is zero accountability so they can be a bully all they want.. i recommend just ignoring or blocking anyone who is verbally abusive or treats you like schoolyard bullies treated you.. life is way too short to spend any time dealing with those kinds of people..

Jonathan Drake

I learned about the nature of science the hard way. After an undergraduate education in biology at a small southern college, I was determined to get a Ph.D in evolutionary genetics at the best laboratory in that field ... But soon after I arrived and began working on evolution in fruit flies, I thought I'd made a terrible mistake.
Shy and reserved, I felt as if I'd been hurled into a pit of unrelenting negativity. In research seminars, the audience seemed determined to dismantle the credibility of the speaker. Sometimes they wouldn't even wait until the question period after the talk, but would rudely shout out critical questions and comments during the talk itself. When I thought I had a good idea and tentatively described it to my fellow graduate students, it was picked apart like a flounder on a plate ... Eventually, fearful of being criticized, I simply kept my mouth shut and listened. That went on for two years.
But in the end, that listening was my education in science, for I learned that the pervasive doubt and criticality weren't intended as personal attacks, but we're actually the essential ingredients in science, used as a form of quality control to uncover the researchers misconceptions and mistakes.
- Jerry Coyne, "Faith VS Fact

You mistake what the people you aren't naming are doing for personal attacks when really what it is, is your first experience with the quality control of an open forum. You are having to face people who disagree with you on reasonable and factual grounds and you aren't liking it at all.

You must learn to deal with this reasonably. Reacting this way is only showing everyone you cannot deal with being wrong and cannot handle any substantial dialogue.